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Jason Schwartzman Talks About Playing a Shitty Guy in His New Movie

Jason Schwartzman, who is, in fact, an absolutely lovely man, stars as the titular cantankerous young writer in Alex Ross Perry’s third directorial effort, Listen Up Philip. The day after Listen Up Philip premiered at Sundance this year...

Elisabeth Moss and Jason Schwartzman in Alex Ross Perry's Listen Up Philip.

Jason Schwartzman, who is, in fact, an absolutely lovely man, stars as the titular, cantankerous young writer in Alex Ross Perry’s third directorial effort, Listen Up Philip. In the opening narration, Philip—set to release his sure-to-succeed second novel—is given license to speak his mind and, boy, does he ever. From the onset, Philip's narcissism and pettiness bloom under a much-desired need to be right. The city, his girlfriend, and the publishers he once loved now seem like they're closing in on him, asking too much, and swallowing him whole. With each passing complaint, Philip grows stronger and more assured in his spite, until he finally takes up his mentor's advice and moves to the country to try and focus his anger into another novel.

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Listen Up Philip works as a triptych and reads like a novel. The opening introduces Philip, a man with great potential to succeed and even greater potential to lose it. The middle examines the life of his girlfriend, Ashley—Elisabeth Moss from Mad Men—who has everything but love. The final third of the film centers around Philip's idol, Ike Zimmerman, a 70-year-old writer played perfectly by Jonathan Pryce [Brazil].

The witty, fast-paced dialogue that fueled Alex's previous feature, The Color Wheel, is even more heightened here. The quiet moments seem out of place—if Philip were to stop talking, he might as well give up.

The day after Listen Up Philip premiered at Sundance this year, I interviewed Alex and Jason about the film. The interview was set up in an abandoned building, furnished only by a fold-out table crammed with too many chairs and a vase of scraggly flowers. It would have been the ideal place for Philip’s character to write—simple, clean, quiet, and away from the hubbub of celebrities and adoring fans.

Before I started asking questions Jason peeked at Alex’s phone and asked what he was looking at. Alex quickly said, "Reviews of the movie." Then he turned to me and apologized (something Philip would never do).

"Eight point nine on film.com," Alex said. "My livelihood depends on this."

"All of our livelihood’s do," Jason replied.

VICE: Alex, why did you think anyone would be interested in a biopic about yourself?
Alex Ross Perry: That’s a very humorous first question. There are so many aspects of people’s personalites or things they do where I think, What is it that makes these people tick? The actions, behavior, and the peculiarities of what everyone does in the movie are things I see around me. I wonder, How does this guy get away with this? What allows him to live a life where he’s basically unpunished and unchanged for never learning a single lesson and everything is fine despite that? It’s not really me, hopefully. But I think by putting everything in the movie, I’ll avoid doing half of these things, should the threat ever arise.

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Did you see Jason as that character, or just someone who is a good actor?
Philip is a miserable, mean-spirited guy on paper. If we wanted the character like that on screen, we would have gotten someone like Joaquin Phoenix, who's an intense, dangerous-seeming person. But then people would be like, "Jesus, I don’t know about this guy. I don’t know if I can watch this movie. This guy seems like he’s crazy." There's no way for the movie to work unless Philip is likeable. He’s not likable on the page, so he has to be likable on the screen. How can we do that without changing the character? Jason could do that.

Jason Schwartzman: I remember we were having dinner and I said we should make this movie. Alex was like, "Really? You’re one of two people who could do this." I’ve always wondered who that other guy was. I don’t know if I want to know.

Alex: I acted in my last movie, and I was aware of my—I wouldn’t even say limitations—but my lack of possibilities as a performer. People assumed I was going to act in this, but it was too stressful. It makes me a bad director, and it wouldn’t have worked for the character. I’m too negative. We needed a character with a soft disposition, or to be likable in some way. When I sent the script to Jason, I felt like a B-minus student applying to Harvard, thinking, Maybe they’ll accidentally put my application in the right pile.

Jason: Aw, that’s so nice.

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Alex: We never knew how big this movie was going to be. My last movie was made for $30,000. We didn’t know if we’d make this one for $100,000 or what. Also, I didn't know anything about how one begins a conversation with actors like this. I didn't cast anyone in my other films unless I could personally send them a text and take advantage of their time. But this clearly was the most central part of the film—what pulse does Philip put out, what energy does he have? Jason was the first person to agree to do the movie. At that point, other actors read the script knowing that he would be reading the lines. They knew exactly what type of film this was going to be. Elisabeth Moss came on next.

Elisabeth’s character, Ashley, is odd compared to Philip. Everything is going great for her, except for Philip, who’s struggling with many conflicts (albeit self-generated) throughout the film. What about him is so irresistible to her?
I’m consistently surprised by the level of shitheadery women look past in favor of talent and charisma. Philip isn't having an identity crisis—he’s just completely miserable. He knows who he is, he knows what he wants to do, and he knows that he’s good at it. That’s something that women seem to be attracted to. It’s so weird how you can have five or six women in the movie who all seem to be interested in him in one way or another. But I’m like, That’s crazy, he’s a mean guy, he’s not nice. But Philip is talented, he’s funny, and he’s not some mean schlub—he tucks in his shirt and puts on a jacket. You can look past the fact that he’s going to yell at you because there’s something about the brain of people who are talented and respected that people find very attractive. That’s a big question that I wanted to work through with this film.

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Jason: I’m not the greatest person to ask about this. I sit there with my wife on the couch on a Sunday afternoon asking her, "Do girls like it when…?" and she’s like, "I don’t speak for all women!" I've definitely seen terrible relationships, but I have all kinds—some good, some more confused. When we were doing this movie, we had to get to this point where Philip could just do some of these terrible things. Because I would always be like, "God, I can’t believe he would do this."  We would both think, "I can’t believe he would say that to her." I’d ask Alex how Philip should react when someone says this or that… "Does he feel a little bit?" Alex would just say, "No." Philip is an extreme character. One thing that’s interesting in the movie, in the opening narration it explains that this is new for Philip—he usually bottles things up. This is the first time in his life when he’s speaking his mind.

Alex: Yeah, I said we needed to look at it like someone trying drugs for the first time. Philip is a guy who was on the straight and narrow and it was not really working for him. Then someone said, "Just try it," and by the end of the movie, he’s coked out of his mind and asleep in an opium den like in Once Upon a Time in America because he got so completely lost in the haze of abuse.

Jason: He’s disconnected. It sneaks up on you. Philip was going to experiment with being cold, but before he knew it, he was already there. You always hear about how bodybuilders were puny growing up, getting bullied, and then they got big. Philip is a body builder in a different sense.

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An emotionally-abusive builder. He always does the wrong thing, but he lets people know why he’s doing it. The film uses narration instead of expositional dialogue, but Philip’s assholism is also a form of exposition. 
Alex: I think it’d be hard for people to accept some of that behavior on its own terms, unless you knew beyond any doubt that the character was fully aware of what he’s doing. Philip knows he’s being an asshole.

Listen audience, we know this character’s a shitty guy. He knows he’s a shitty guy. But look at how happy he is to know that. He’s smiling. Don’t point out that this character is really mean to people. We know that. Clearly, the film is aware of that. Please do not think that that is something that you’re not supposed to connect with.

Do you think a woman could ever play this character?
Alex: At one point, years ago, before any producer was ever attached to this script, I had an idea that I should just flip the gender of every character. I wondered what that would be like—what a weird movie that would be. I don’t understand anything about women. I don’t know if women have this sort of relationship. Philip’s relationship with Ike, played by Jonathan Pryce, is so masculine. There’s so much male ego in it. I don't know if that relationship exists between women. Maybe just because I don’t know anything about women and I’ve never seen that in a movie before. The biggest question for Jason, Elisabeth and me before we shot was, "Why are these people together?" Within two days of filming, after seeing what Elisabeth was bringing, I realized they’re together because they’re the same person. Separated, she acts exactly the same as Philip, but when they’re together it’s like two ends of a battery. They don’t connect, because they have the same charge.

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Are you guys similar to Philip in the sense that you hide away in your room after a bad review?
Jason: I am.

Alex: You just saw me looking for the reviews people put out.

Jason: Maybe that means you don’t give a shit?

Alex: I’m so aware of what people have disliked about other things I’ve made that I’m curious about what people will not like about this one. It’s not going to bum me out. My last movie was certainly despised by many and beloved by several. You can make a movie where some people say it misses the mark, but if it’s a piece of work that’s clearly going to be canon to someone, then nothing else matters.

Jason: I get really bummed out. Obviously, no one can like everything you do, but I always think, Aren’t there things that come out that everyone loves? I wonder what that feels like.

Not everyone is going to love it.
It’s true. But I will take it personally. I don’t like it when it feels personal. I’ve read reviews where it feels like an attack, and I’m like, "I thought we were talking about my movie, but now you’re talking about my face. I can’t do anything about my face."

Well, you can…
And then they’d write about that! Someone said to me, "You play a real jerk in this movie. What was that like?" But I’ve been in movies before where people have said the same thing and I wasn’t trying to play an asshole. It’s funny—whatever thing you give off, like listening to your voice on an answering machine and realizing it sounds high and getting embarrassed. Or you read a review of yourself and you think Gosh, I didn’t realize that I did that to people—that I offended people in that way.

Alex: I’m at a point that Philip isn't at yet. I know what I made and I don't care whether you like it or not. This is exactly what I wanted to do.

Great job.