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John Keene: The writer and writer-critic Sarah Schulman wrote on Facebook that she read it that way too, as a kind of experimental novel, and I'm a huge fan of her so I took that as the highest compliment. But I really was thinking of it as intersecting in a formal, dramatic, philosophical way, as intersecting but non-directly connecting stories. But every story has a parallel story. And there are all these interior connections, interior architectures that reveal themselves.The first story out of all of these that I wrote was "An Outtake from Ideological Origins of the American Revolution." I was in grad school when I wrote that. I was trying something different from the things I had been writing at the time. I was sitting in a classroom in New York thinking about how all of New York City had slavery before the Civil War—I mean well into the 1800s—but there were no physical signs of that past. So I was interested in thinking about how I might animate and dramatize that hidden past. Once I finished that story and it was workshopped and I discussed it with my professor, who was E. L. Doctorow, then I actually wrote a second section that I saw as in conversation with that first section, and then later, the final story of the collection, which is in a certain way the culmination and response or colloquy with the proceeding sections.
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That duality ended up becoming an essential setup of the book, yes? You have the first half, Counternarratives, which is then reflected by the second, Encounternarratives, thereafter leading into the final section, which is just the singular, Counternarrative.[Fiction] has this extraordinary capacity to create and engender and foster empathy.
I wasn't so conscious of this as I was writing, but it became clear to me later on that the first section there is a play with the objective perspective on history—but strange things start to happen with the voices in their accounts.For example, in "An Outtake," "On Brazil," or in the beginning of the story "Gloss, or the Strange History of Our Lady of the Sorrows," there is this seemingly objective voice. In the second section, almost all of the pieces are in first person, so we're actually hearing the characters themselves speak. There is this kind of movement from objectivity to subjectivity that is interesting to me in relation to who these speakers are, and why it's so important for them to tell their stories, and why their stories still remain so hidden to us today.
The older I get, and the more I write, [it becomes clear to me] that that is one of the most powerful things fiction can do. It has this extraordinary capacity to create and engender and foster empathy. Because on a certain level, when we are immersed in narrative, we allow ourselves to be transported to another place. James Geary wrote an amazing book on metaphor that talked exhaustively about the power of metaphor and the way metaphor works and metaphor especially in relation to narrative.
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On one level, I would say it's easier to enter the fiction. You know there is no objective. We have these very powerful, widely read, and, in many cases, long, beloved texts. So when you challenge those, of course, not only are people going to get upset, but they are going to be challenged. How are you going to rise to the level of the text that you've been working with especially when it is so iconic and powerful as with The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn or Tom Sawyer?
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I remember maybe it was like five years ago when they were trying to get the racial slurs removed from Huck Finn, or at least change them to a different word. Do you think of a practice like that versus going in and exposing the trouble from a completely different way?To write this poem, the poem, you must make yourself another.
I feel like we shouldn't whitewash anything. Because Huckleberry Finn, and any number of such books, are artifacts of our history. And I think if you're teaching it to a younger person then the teacher should frame it. You don't want to say, "This is a bad book, this is a good book." You want to say: "This term will appear here, and we want to understand why it is in here. So one of the things we are going to think about while we're reading—and it's not going to be easy—[is] why do you think this term appears in here and what does it tell us about the moment, the era, the time in which it was written?"
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I do. And I think some of the stories more clearly lend themselves to certain kinds of readings, such as in thinking about the boundedness of black bodies and our understanding of freedom and democracy in the United States today and the limits of liberalism and ideology—and how we might think about moving forward.But I do feel there's a continuum between the past and today, and it really is important that people think about what was happening then because we don't operate in a vacuum. So much of our discourse today is still informed by our history, in this country and this hemisphere.I've always had problems with a lot of realistic fiction because it so often seems to be missing so much of the magic and sensuality that your work is able to accomplish. I wonder how much you consider that condition and your viewpoint amongst it as an eye that integrates so much musicality and imagination into fact.
I think a lot of it has to do with the economics of publishing, and the kinds of expectations that people have for the work—what people want to read, what people are interested in. Part of it is a product of the institutional forces that many writers now engage with, not just in publishing but with MFA programs. I don't agree that those programs ruin writing, and in fact there's much one can say to praise them.
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