Kyle Thomas is one of the best guys going in the good-time rock ‘n’ roll department. He was in a good folk band called Feathers, is still in a good metal band with J Mascis called Witch, and plays in two also-great rock bands called Happy Birthday and King Tuff.
I first met King Tuff this past summer after he finished playing a Happy Birthday show. I had no clue what was happening at the time. All my Puerto Rican pals and I were slathering him with compliments about how great he was. He took this photo of me with his friend. He and I kinda had a similar style of grooming:
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Later I discovered that my then-way-underage ex-girlfriend from ten years ago was the best friend of his ex-girlfriend. I’d been loosely aware of him as a presence but we never really encountered one another. I had known King Tuff as a blurry imaginary man who dated my girlfriend’s friend, and I had known him as a distant musician whose music I loved. We hung out and got some beers and food and I got to know him for real. King Tuff was kind of a hobby band for years. Then, when they played at the Knitting Factory in Brooklyn a couple months back, they had the place overflowing with human bodies who were singing along and super into it. I don’t think Kyle knew that people like his shit that much. I didn’t either. It was a super positive time.
We had some beers and then a really scintilating and special conversation about all kinds of shit on the walk from the bar to Kellog’s Diner. Then I started recording and I believe shit got awkward. We still had a pretty good time showing each other our drawings and stuff.
Vice: Where’d the name King Tuff come from?
King Tuff: I wrote it down on a piece of a paper when I was seventeen maybe. It’s a play on words obviously. It’s like King Tut and it’s my initials.
Oh right, Kyle Thomas. I never made either of those connections.
I carried it around on a piece of paper in my wallet for a long time before I knew what it was. That was around the time I started recording songs by myself. I’d been in bands before but that was when I began trying to write songs and that name came to me at that time.
The King Tuff record is awesome. I’ve heard that you’ve got like five records worth of material that you’ve never released.
There are those early records that I recorded and I kinda like some of the songs on them and my friends who have those albums always suggest that I play songs off them but I wouldn’t dream of releasing any of that stuff. It’s way different. Maybe I’d release it some day. It’s me going through learning how to write songs.
You think Sub Pop would release them? Were they happy with the Happy Birthday record?
They seemed to like that record. I don’t know if they’d release any of that early stuff because it isn’t very good. I think some of it is good but a lot of it is pretty so-so. It was just me learning to write songs.
Yeah, but that’s often the most interesting shit that a person can make.
That’s true. Of course I’m not going to understand it because I can’t listen to my old shit. I have no idea what it sounds like to other people.
An old teacher told me that the creative process is that you create a bunch of problems for yourself and when you solve them all, the piece is done.
I can understand that because the times I’ve tried to do oil paintings, I just paint over the shit a million times.
I think seeing the process is exciting. It wouldn’t have to be an official album; it could be like “The Early Works.”
That’s true. I’m not opposed to anyone hearing it. That album Was Dead was originally called Mind Blow. and there was a bunch of different songs on there. I recorded that in 2003 or 2004 on this digital 8-Track. The sound is wicked shitty. Years later I had a tape 8-track and I knew I could make that album better so I just redid it. That kind of did get released by my friend, the old version. This guy Ron from Brattleboro, he plays in this band, Sunburned Hand of the Man. He’s got a small record label where he makes burned CDs and he did a small pressing of that. That was around the same time I decided to rerecord it.
This is a stupid question. All my questions are stupid. We were having a good conversation before I started recording this.
It’s OK. We can just talk like normal people.
Can we? I don’t know if I can.
Yeah, I don’t know, camera turns on and “What the fuck?”
Is it weird that you’re suddenly finding a response for songs you wrote eight years and put on an album like three years ago?
2008, yeah three years.
I know the record because of Bryce, the guy who put it out and worked for Vice, so I got it through that grapevine, but I never had any idea whether people knew about you or not. The record sounds large to me, like the kind of thing where it’s got immediate appeal, but I’d heard that you didn’t have much of a following and that the last time King Tuff played New York there was no one in the audience.
We did one tour with Matt and Kim because Matt is brothers with Fletcher who’s in King Tuff. I grew up with Matt too and we all played in punk bands together. King Tuff only did one real tour. We toured with them when they were playing punk shit. It was awesome but it was also a weird pairing because I felt like a scummy rock and roll guy and I had all these super psyched kids. I felt like an outsider.
Like a dirty uncle?
Kind of. I always kind of felt like that. Even when I was a little kid I wanted to be called Uncle Kyle.
I told my mom to call me Cowboy Delicious when I was really young.
That’s pretty hot. I was also Wonder Worm. That was another nickname. What can I say? We only did that one tour. There were some great shows where people were into it, but we played one show in New York at the end of that tour and there weren’t that many people. It’s just kind of cool for me because I never thought that album would do anything. I had CD-Rs on that tour, but after that I was just kinda like “Fuck this.” I was also doing Feathers and Witch at the time. I never thought anything would happen with King Tuff.
Is Witch still going on?
Yeah, we’re gonna make another album. I just made a bunch of demos for it. That’s always been a really relaxed project. I love playing that shit live. It’s so fun.
Where’d you get the Sun Medallion that you sing about?
I worked at a thrift store. When I started working there it was run by all these crazy women and I was the only guy working there. They were sort of witchy and super awesome. The store would get all this amazing shit in there all the time. I found this great $300 old school guitar pedal for like five bucks. So when I worked there it was totally disastrous because I would sort through the donations as they came in and set aside stuff and my room just turned into a mountain of shit. I ended up giving most of it back to them. I got a few things like that necklace. It seemed like the right thing at the time.
Do you feel a deep connection to it or do you just like it?
I’m a strong believer, well not a strong believer but–yes, I am. I don’t understand why people don’t talk about this more because I talk about it to everyone I know. If there’s anything that is God…
It’s the sun?
It’s the fucking Sun. It’s a ball of energy in the fucking sky that we all revolve around, that makes everything grow, that keeps us alive, that makes us feel happy when we’re in it–and we can’t even fucking look at it. You tell me that’s not God.
I said something like that to my Dad once when I was little and he said something like, “Great, thousands of years of human development since the ancient Egyptians and you want to go back to worshiping the Sun.”
They probably had it right. Egyptian aliens and shit.
Did you see Indiana Jones four?
Oh yeah, it was awesome.
You liked it?
Yeah.
What did you like about it?
The scene with the spidermonkeys where they’re swingin’ on the vines. That super fake looking scene. I was like, “What the fuck!?” I’m totally with you, but I just had to change my mind into thinking it was awesome.
What’d you think of the Star Wars prequels?
I was never obsessed with Star Wars, so I just saw the first one and thought it was OK. But with movies, I have a really hard time telling if they’re good or bad.
What?
We’ll come out of the movies and I’ll be like,”Well, that was cool.” I just feel entertained when I’m watching them. I don’t think about whether they’re good or bad unless they’re extremely bad.
So what are your favorite movies?
Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. An American Tale. Suburbia–the Penelope Spheeris one. Those are the only three that come to mind. What’s your favorite movie?
Probably something by David Lynch.
I just saw Season one of Twin Peaks.
Did it blow your mind?
So great. I didn’t see the rest though.
Alfie’s older brother had all the VHS tapes when we were dating and I’d go over to their house and just stay up all night watching them. I couldn’t help it. I wanted to find out who killed Laura Palmer so bad.
I still don’t know.
I won’t tell you.
I’ll find out. I like David Lynch as a person. I like anyone who’s a total fucking freak.
Who are your favorite freaks? Were you a freak in high school?
Well, you read the interview that Vice did with my mom.
Nope.
If people ever read an interview that’s concerning me in any way it’s always the one that my mom did for Vice. There’s a couple photos of me in high school with a mohawk. Before high school I was friends with the jocks and shit. I played little league. I loved baseball. At the same time I loved guitar. When it came to middle school I had to choose between the two. I just started drifting more towards the music. I still love baseball and if there was a hardball league I would join right now. I hate softball though.
Your brother’s an artist too. What’s his name?
Luke… Thomas.
The cover to the first Witch record is a mind melter. Did he do the cover for the second one too?
We did the first one together, painting on the table. I’d say it’s a fifty-fifty collaboration. The second one is more his. Especially the pencils. I mostly just colored it. I really love the inside of the gatefold. Have you seen it on vinyl?
Not the second one.
The inside is the good part. It’s a post-apocalyptic scene of a melted person with a guitar in piles of trash. It’s really awesome.
Are you still living with your mom?
Nah, I live in my art studio now. A bunch of my stuff is still there and I’ll go over and cook and take showers there. I just sleep at my art studio and spend most of my time there.
Are you mostly drawing?
Nah, I mostly just write songs.
Sorry these questions are so broad.
At least you’re not asking me the same questions that people always ask me.
What are those?
They’ll be like,”How did the band get together?” or they’re super general questions that you can look up in an online press release.
I should have looked for an online press release before I did this…
There is one for King Tuff but these are fine.
At the Knitting Factory show I was told that there’s a mushroom hidden on your face on the album cover that you weren’t aware of.
It wasn’t placed there by anyone. It’s just the silhouette of the nose and the forehead. I thought it was pretty sweet when somebody noticed it.
In one of the Rorshach inkblots there’s a negative shape in the center that looks like a lamp but usually only schizophrenics notice it.
I wonder who noticed the mushroom first. You think they’re schizo? Oh yeah, check this out. This is one of my favorite artists (shows off tattoo.) Aminah Slor. Have you met her?
No.
She’s from New York. She drew and tattooed this within a few hours.
What is it?
It’s my inner cavewoman. There’s a nasty boob right there. She’s recording on the four-track. I just kinda sat there and told her what to draw.
Can you tell me about the stuff in your sketchbook?
Sure.
What’s the story on how you drew this guy?
A face is just the easiest thing to draw. When I don’t know what to draw it usually ends up being a face. It usually ends up decrepit in some way because it’s fun to draw wrinkles.
Is this how you feel?
I wouldn’t say that. It’s how I want to feel.
This is kind of an underground scene, like a cave scene.
This is some sort of Lucifer type character.
Football dudes.
Do you ever feel like you’d be comfortable outside of anywhere that isn’t Vermont?
Yeah, I’m gonna go hang out in LA for a while. I have some really good friends I want to hang out with. Vermont will always be my home no matter what. I’m less into moving and more into floating around and experiencing places for however long. I don’t know, I’d rather just be a floater for a while. I feel comfortable wherever I go. There’s definitely places I like.
[Kyle bites into a pickle] Mm. Pickle’s good. There’s this place in Jersey where they just give you a bowl of pickles.
Do you ever show your drawings?
I’ve had art shows in the past. I had a show in New York years ago with this woman, Hannah. She had this gallery, Little Cakes. I had an art show there with Tom From USA is a Monster and this guy Nate and some other guy… Eric. I’ve had a few art shows but I really want to do it again. I feel really good when I make art.
This is like a miniature version of a drawing. I’ve got to tell you this story: A few months ago I was at my friend’s house and I had just taken a piss when I saw that she had a stick of deodorant on the shelf that was lichen scented and I was like, “What the fuck does lichen smell like?”
Lycan, like a werewolf?
No, lichen like what grows on a tree. So I picked up the deodorant and my hand started shaking instantly and it just went right down the toilet and broke it. Then I did a series of drawings of myself dropping the thing in the toilet to raise money to buy her a new toilet. I wrote a song about it too.
How’d the song go?
It was called the “Deoderant Stick Down the Toilet Tragedy.” It just told the story, in a Bob Dylan song sort of way. I didn’t apologize but they knew I felt really bad about it. It was a hilarious thing that people are probably going to talk to me about for the rest of my life. Everyone in my town heard about it. I live in a small town so everyone knows each other. One time at Thanksgiving a few years ago I was shaking this huge thing of orange juice and the snap cap came off and orange juice went flying everywhere. The next day I walked into town and somebody totally random came up to me and said, “Hey, I heard about the orange juice.” I’m like, “How the fuck did you hear about that?” It illustrates how small my town is.
Do they know about your music and art or do they just know you as a guy who breaks things and fucks up orange juice?
The second thing.
What’s your brother up to?
He just finished a comic…. It’s called Beaver Puss. He’s never been published at all but he’s really good. I want him to get his shit out there because he’s such a good fucking artist and he’s a cook in the co-op. It drives me crazy.
What’s a Beaver Puss?
He’s a dimwit. There’s only one episode so far. He builds a time machine… You should probably just look at it. There’s a French moose that’s really cool.
I usually ask people what their songs mean but I feel like I know what your songs mean.
I definitely take way more time writing my lyrics now than I did before. My focus is writing good songs. There are some people who focus on that today but sometimes I wonder if people care about lyrics. I don’t often hear lyrics that touch me in that special way or that I can even relate to at all. A lot of them are sequences of images or stream of consciousness shit. Maybe there’s cool imagery but it doesn’t speak to me.
Of the things that are out there what are you liking?
I really like Cassie Ramone’s songwriting.
Have you heard the Babies record yet?
Not yet but I’m psyched to hear it because I love what I heard so far. She’s the real shit. You can tell if you talk to her that she cares about it. The Vivian Girls came up and recorded with me. One of the songs came out as a seven-inch. It was a Shangri-Las cover. They were just trying to record shit for their next album and recording with different people. So right before they got there my eight-track stopped working. I told them I had a four-track and they totally did not give a fuck and were like,”Yeah, let’s do it!” and set up and played the songs. They did not fucking care. It was really real.
Anyone else you like?
I always blank on questions like this. I was wondering if you’d ask me about this earlier and I totally forgot what I was going to say. I mostly like people I’m acquainted. I like my friend Kurt Weissman. Ruth from Happy Birthday writes really good songs.
Tell me about the relationship between King Tuff and Happy Birthday.
I’d say the biggest difference are the actual chords I use. In King Tuff I use pretty standard chords but with Happy Birthday there are some weirder chords in there. I definitely took a longer time writing those songs with Chris Wiseman. He’s a guitar teacher and trained in jazz and trained in music theory. He wrote a lot of that stuff and we worked on the arrangements together. That’s the main difference: I worked with somebody else. King Tuff is pretty much me by myself.
Your show at the Knitting Factory was sold out and afterward Ellis described the girls coming to meet you as “a row of butts lining up” to meet you. Is King Tuff going to be something you put more time into now that it seems like people are into it?
That’s what I’m concentrating on now for the most part. Happy Birthday don’t really want to go on tour and King Tuff has always been a thing I can do by myself or with other people. Happy Birthday was really fun but it doesn’t translate as well to a live show.
What have you seen in New York that you liked so far?
I saw a crab in an aquarium about twenty minutes ago. His face was totally flat. What else? Nice butts. I went into that little mall on Bedford. There’s a stereo store in the back with a bunch of modern shit. I had a good time looking around there.
That place feels like the Sharper Image to me. Who’s actually buying any of that?
I know it’s weird. But I like going into stores like that where I feel like I’m in the future or something. I like futuristic stores. Like Brookstone. There’s barely anything there. I also like stores where you can dig through piles of shit.
There’s this store near where I live called the Thing. My friend Matthew used to buy all these weird old porno VHS tapes that he’d sample for video art. Tapes with titles like the Dong Show and Blow Some My Way.
Did they have any laser noises during the cum shots? That’s my favorite thing about 70s porn.
There’s this weird one called David T.V. which is a one man porno–scored and shot by the one guy as well. It starts off with the guy, presumably named David, rolling around naked in bed to his own music. Then he goes on a picnic by himself and cuts a hole in a watermelon and sprays warm melted whipped cream all over his body. Then he has sex with the watermelon. It’s clear that there’s no one else involved. It was all shot with a tripod.
My favorite porn is called Night Dreams. It’s sort of a classic. There’s a scene where there’s a guy dressed up as a Cream of Wheat box. He’s lying on the floor and he gets a blowjob from a maid or something. And the song “Old Man River” is playing. At one point, it shows a bag of Wonderbread sitting on the counter and then it goes back to him. Then it goes back to the Wonderbread and there’s some slices spilled out on the counter and then all of a sudden there’s a dude dressed up as a piece of Wonderbread playing a saxophone with sunglasses on. That’s the best scene in any porn I’ve ever seen.
I think this is a good enough interview.
We redeemed it by talking about porn?
Yeah. I’ll just cut out all the parts where I apologize to you.
NICK GAZIN
If you liked that little tete-a-tete, maybe you’d also like to read this interview we did with King Tuff’s mom a couple of years ago.
