
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ

Dr. Renfrew Christie: Absolutely. Remember, I was in Pretoria because my skin is white, he was on Robben Island because his skin is black. We were 1,000 miles away from each other. But there was a joint effort, if you like, by the prisoners on the island, led by Mandela, by the white male prisoners in my prison and the white female prisoners down the road in Pretoria to improve the conditions of imprisonment, which did happen. As the government realized they might actually be imprisoning the future president of the country, they started to treat him better.Do you know Mandela? What kind of interactions have you had with him?
Well, he was in jail for most of my life, but I knew his wife well. She was released from detention in 1971, but put on house arrest at a house owned by the guy I was sharing with. I knew Winnie very well in the early 70s. I met Nelson Mandela when my university was the first to give him an honorary doctorate soon after he was released from prison in 1990, and I met him again in the run up to the elections, but I don’t know him well.
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ
The CIA shot him in 1963 and he was jailed, by which stage I was 12 or 13 years old. He would have no hand in the next 27 years worth of [operations], other than to have little messages smuggled out of prison. Of course, he set up the armed struggle. He gave the wonderful speech in the dock about why one had to fight for one’s freedom. But he wasn’t in any way involved in the nuclear stuff because he was in prison.

You have to see him together with Oliver Tambo. They were a team, even when he was in jail. Their first great success was in the middle of the World War II. Forming and completely recasting the ANC Youth League into a much more pro-democratic, less subservient thing than the rather tame ANC of the 1930s. They caused, if you like, a revolution in thinking during the 40s.He's then at the forefront of all the great campaigns from about 1949 onwards. The anti-pass campaigns, eventually the writing of the Freedom Charter and, as he gets more mature and more respect, he and Tambo give leadership of immense maturity. It’s not a cheap strategy. It’s a, “We are the people and we are the majority of the country. We want a democracy. The country will be much better as a democracy.”
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ

I think the whole movement, not just him, could have done better for women. We do have a significant number of women in parliament in societal leadership roles, but we could have done better. This is the glorious great beginning—we’re beginning to use the other half of humankind that we’ve excluded for the last 10,000 years. And the ANC was a part of that, but not enough. I’d have liked to have seen him find ways to do better in terms of liberating women.
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ
I do think that, in all these sorts of democratic revolutions, the process of enabling people to do economic things that were illegal before is going to be patchy. You’re going to get who just look after themselves. I’m quite sure that, internally, he was quite rigid on the subject.But again, for the sake of unity. Remember he was the unifier. He keeps the broad church that is the ANC together, and you can’t attack a bit of that church. Should he have found somebody to put in jail as an exemplar? Maybe. But I think his need wasn't that. His need was to keep the ANC in power—keep the ANC respected by the people – but above all to achieve unity and have it not fall apart. But you get total unity going up to the democratic revolution. Everyone works together. There’s a united democratic front, they all unite. And then, after revolutions, you always get the squabble. What’s the phrase? "The revolution begins to eat itself"?What he did was to avoid huge fissures, huge fallings apart, rural/urban splits, and so on. So the unifier had difficulty being as strong as he would have liked to have been with people enriching themselves. People enriching themselves is a problem worldwide. America has yet to jail the crooked bankers that ruined the world in 2008. I don’t know why.
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ

Absolutely. The ANC is still the majority party. Around two thirds of the people are voting for it every time. In open democratic elections. It has a vigorous internal politics that's actually not a crooked politics. It’s contested. It develops its policies very thoroughly. It's currently giving social grants to 13 million unemployed people when the United States Congress is busy voting against food stamps.The ANC is still an excellent political party. Are there crooks in it? Yes, of course. But we are in an era of crookery. Just run through the names: Enron, Arthur Andersen, Fannie Mae, Lehman Brothers, Royal Bank of Scotland, HBSC, I can go on. That's what happened in this century. We’re not exempt from that. But we are bit players. We are minor compared to that long litany.Is there any heir apparent to Mandela? Or is he a once in a lifetime political personality?
We have a serious depth of political talent, not only in the ANC, but in all of our political parties. Remember that, for the first time, the majority of people—black people—can now also go into private enterprise. So quite a lot of the talent is going into big business. Which is fine and good, but there’s no lack of political skill. This is a highly politicized system that has outcomes that work.
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ

It has to do with education, education, education. You had a deliberate policy for 100 years of not educating the overwhelming majority. One of the ways of getting out of inequality is really good education. You’ve got some perfectly willing but not particularly competent teachers in the ordinary schools of the ordinary people, and they’re not teaching kids well enough.The route out of inequality has to be urbanization, because inequality in rural areas is very difficult to crack. And we are slowly urbanizing. I would prefer us to have a much stronger urbanization plan so that we actually know what cities are going to be built and why. And we're in the trap that the whole world finds itself in, in that the Chinese manufacturers can undercut you by a hundred times. So, just as the United States manufacturing production hit a brick wall, so has ours. So that’s going to lock us into inequality for a very long time.
ΔΙΑΦΗΜΙΣΗ
There will be a huge period of national mourning. We’ve been prepared for it for some years now, but the death of a hero—the death of a national saviou—we will go through all the rituals. He will remain our unifier, even in death.Last off, what's his legacy?
Taking a country that had become the polecat of the world, which was practicing perhaps the second most despicable form of racism after the Holocaust, and turning it into a viable democracy with an independent judiciary, superb bill of rights and a working economy that all South Africans, regardless of color or gender, can thrive under.Thanks, Dr. Christie.Follow Danny on Twitter: @DMacCashMore stories about South Africa:How to Date South African Girls Trained to Hate Interviewing South African Rape Victims Isn't Easy