Bret Easton Ellis

Less Than Zero

The Rules of Attraction

Less Than Zero

American Psycho

American Psycho

Glamorama

Zoolander

Lunar Park

Less Than Zero

American Psycho

Lunar Park

American Psycho

Less Than Zero

Imperial Bedrooms

Less Than Zero

Imperial Bedrooms

American Psycho

Lunar Park.

Less Than Zero, Imperial Bedrooms

Imperial Bedrooms

Less Than Zero

Vice

Imperial Bedrooms

Vice: So what were you doing today before we started talking?

Bret Easton Ellis:

I don’t really know what that means since I’m so unfamiliar with LA.

Oh, I’ve been taken there. I know what you’re talking about now.

I suppose it’s the place to go for some nature in Los Angeles, but I had the feeling there that I have in most of LA—this kind of menace and impending-murder thing. I kept waiting for the monster from behind the dumpster in Mulholland Drive to jump out at me.

What is it about LA? I imagine from your work that you feel this same sense of dread and madness in that city that I feel?

OK.

Yeah, New York is weird too.

But still, do you have any thoughts on what makes LA feel so creepy?

Yeah.

My current conception of LA started in some ways with your novel Less Than Zero and then also from seeing old movies like Sunset Boulevard. I think that maybe part of what makes LA so weird is that there’s a palpable sense of desperation in the air. A lot of young people who want to make it.

That showed up a lot in your new novel, Imperial Bedrooms.

There’s the character of Rain, obviously, who is willing to do anything to get a role in a film, but also there’s a part where Clay watches a video of the young actor who lived in his apartment before him, and he sees “the fake smile, the pleading eyes, the mirage of it all.” Do you encounter that kind of person in real life?

And do they ask you for things?

Yeah.

And is there a transaction that’s presented to you in the clear-cut but unspoken way that Rain does it with Clay? Is it really like that sometimes, with a wannabe actor propositioning a writer or a producer?

OK.

Oh no, of course not. Yet it seems like people will never get tired of probing you about how much of your fiction is autobiographical.

No. You’re as good or better than all of them. But I don’t know, I don’t want to get off topic too much. Never mind.

I like Chabon, but I get this weird sense that I wouldn’t like him as a person. Not that that matters, of course.

But it’s difficult for me sometimes. I think there’s something kind of too cute about Lethem, or at least something too cute about his last novel, Chronic City.

The Fortress of Solitude.

Kavalier & Clay

That was great.

The Corrections

Those are kind of their inarguable books I guess, those three.

Oh, really?

I didn’t know that. What was he like in school?

Let’s get back on track here. I guess that people probe you about the autobiographical stuff so much because, when Less Than Zero came out, you were not just seen as a novelist. It was this voice-of-a-generation thing, and people lazily thought, “Well, he must be just like the people in the book because he’s their age and he shares some background details with them.” So you were marketed as a novelist but also as something more than a novelist. In a way, it was a book marketer’s dream. Is that what you meant when you talked earlier about being exploited?

I’m sure.

Yeah.

I could see it being difficult not to play into it a little bit when you’ve been handed a role and it’s working so well.

Did you lose friends when you got famous?

And some of them lasted for more than 24 hours, too.

Were these people who had ended up having any degree of success for themselves?

OK, so I don’t have a fancy way to ask this next question…

Well, why write a sequel?

It’s a big one and a small one.

OK.

Yeah.

Lunar Park

But I love the idea of a novel like Less Than Zero having a sequel. When I heard awhile back that your next book was a follow-up to Less Than Zero I thought it was really perverse and hilarious. I thought it was great.

Once the little guy inside your head says you’re doing it, there’s no going back. Right?

Yeah, I’ve read elsewhere that if it’s not fun for you, you’re not going to be doing it.

Have you ever abandoned a work because it ended up not being fun?

That’s great. So you really make sure before you get down to the meat of it.

A lot of writers talk about their process like it’s akin to being waterboarded.

Yeah, I think so. It leads to negative stereotypes about writers!

There’s no reason to do it if it’s not fun. Was Imperial Bedrooms easy to plot once you started to outline it?

I was going to ask you about pulp novels, actually.

And what did this pulp stuff have to do with plotting out Imperial Bedrooms?

Did you have The Day of the Locust in mind?

Entourage

Oh, my God. Entourage makes me want to puke.

Entourage

Yeah.

Entourage

Sure, it makes sense. But you were talking about Clay, and about Raymond Chandler being an inspiration for that character in the new book. That’s interesting because Clay is so full of fear, but then he turns into such a monster toward the end.

Well, sometimes when you pull back the curtain, it ruins things.

laughs

I guess what I’m thinking about now is that your work often reads, in part, like horror fiction. Do you think that Imperial Bedrooms is a horrific thing? Because I felt tension and horror when I was reading it.

And Lunar Park was so great. Once I realized that you were going for a full-blown horror thing, I was excited to see what you would do with it.

They’re stupid.

It’s too bad that they weren’t willing to take the ride because I think it totally made sense. This horror thing goes back to something you were saying earlier, when I said that I feel dread and menace in Los Angeles, and you told me that you feel it everywhere.

What worries you?

Do you worry about things like getting murdered or being the victim of a home invasion?

But you must be able to access the horror inside yourself to be able to do it so effectively, don’t you think?

I mean, I’m basically Psychology 101’ing you right now so maybe I should back off.

I just really like the sense of fear and where the fear comes from in this book. Like these mysterious text messages that Clay keeps getting. They reminded me of the weird emails in Lunar Park. You just mentioned that some people didn’t like the horror aspects of that book. Do you think about the possible reception of a novel when you’re working on it?

laughs

Imperial Bedrooms

He thinks everybody’s stalking him, and he thinks everybody’s got ulterior motives, and he thinks everybody’s out to get him. And being afraid of everything is definitely a weird form of narcissism.

By shrinks and friends?

Bret Easton Ellis with two attractive young friends of photographer Jerry Hsu.

Part of the reason that I asked about reception is because we were talking earlier about how when your books come out, they’re sometimes treated by critics with an extra level where they talk about you as a person as much as they talk about the book. Right?

I could imagine it being difficult for you to not think at some point, even for a second, “Well, this one’s going to make this critic think this.” Not like it’s going to make you write differently or change what you’re doing, but I wonder if the thought even crosses your mind.

Janet Maslin, let’s say.

And she likes you, as I recall. Right?

Lunar Park.

Oh, so she’s one of them?

What do you think of Michiko Kakutani?

It seems like she’s more conscious of the power she might wield than other critics are.

Yeah, because there’s ego behind it.

There’s a positive blurb from her on my copy of Less Than Zero.

Not a lot of people can say that. Did you read the recent New Yorker review of this new biography of Muriel Spark?

They were talking about how she had a real sense of playing God when she wrote—this disdainful feeling for her characters. It made me wonder how you feel about your characters.

Of course.

But is there an emotional satisfaction sometimes? Do you ever feel excitement when you’re writing or is it all very technical?

It must be. The final passages in both Imperial Bedrooms and Lunar Park pack a lot of emotional impact. They’re moving. Especially the end of Imperial Bedrooms, where Clay is talking about how he never liked anyone and how he’s afraid of people. And then there are these things that are embedded, like he talks about “moving the game as you play,” which is a callback to the quote from the band X that opens Less Than Zero, so there’s this full-circle thing happening too.

That’s interesting.

Do you really belabor what to lose and what to keep as you’re going from the outline to the novel?

laughs

Glamorama

They decide how long or short the book will be.

How does that process work, though? How do you let a character speak to you?

Lunar Park

Less Than Zero

The Rules of Attraction

American Psycho

Glamorama

Imperial Bedrooms

I like that you’re so into the narrator because if there’s ever been an unreliable narrator in fiction, it’s almost every one of yours.

But I almost feel like every narrator is going to be unreliable in some way.

A Gate at the Stairs

Some of them, yeah. But not the Rabbit books.

Right.

Of course.

Lunar Park

Imperial Bedrooms is a return to a more stripped-down prose style for you.

Less Than Zero

Was it your editor who helped you pare it down?

Less Than Zero

And each of those early novels were very much roman à clef, right?

Less Than Zero

There are two traps that seem easy to fall into when you’re writing in the third person. One of them is overexplaining and overdescribing, because you’re this omniscient God guy. And then also—especially when some of the topics are extreme situations like what you’ve written about—the third person might feel like it’s taking a moral stand one way or another.

And all of this goes back to why people thought that Clay was you when Less Than Zero came out. It was first-person present tense.

It’s like the Dust Bowl down in the Valley in comparison.

Less Than Zero

Less Than Zero

When you were writing the first few pages of Imperial Bedrooms, and it’s Clay talking about this guy that he’d known who had written this book about him and his friends, and it was made into a movie about them, were you thinking of him as describing you in some way? I know that this is dangerously close to an annoying autobiography question.

I like the simple answer. Now, I’m going to get into a spoiler here. I really like how, so early in the book, you tell us about how the character Julian Wells dies.

That threw me until I realized it was a foretelling, because on the next page, you know, Clay’s having a drink with him or something.

Julian’s corpse, and late in the book his actual murder, are described in really grisly detail. When you do something like an intense flash-forward like that, do you know why you chose to do it, or is it just an instinct?

I read, on some level, a kind of glee in killing off this character so early and in such a nasty fashion. This is a character of yours that is well known, and a character that was, in my opinion, bastardized in the movie. And you kind of just have him destroyed and bashed to pieces right away as this sequel is beginning.

Imperial Bedrooms

Less Than Zero

Less Than Zero.

Jesus Christ.

Fast Times at Ridgemont High

Imperial Bedrooms

If it’s an instinct that you had, why like it or not like it?

Lunar Park

Yeah.

Imperial Bedrooms

Less Than Zero

But that was a perfect-storm situation. It was like the whole culture was primed for it.

Like kill off Julian.

Do you have a problem with me saying that Julian’s death is foretold on page 9 of my review copy of Imperial Bedrooms? Because I won’t if you don’t want me to.

Cool. And, I mean, you’re going to get to it within a few minutes of reading the book anyway. So… Clay is pretty vacant and passive in Less Than Zero.

Right. But in this book, you know, he’s kind of fearful and he’s kind of vacant and passive, but then toward the end it changes. I mean there’s this mini-American Psycho sequence with him late in the book, where he’s got those two little hookers at a house out in the desert. That felt very unlike the Clay that I’ve known before. What was it like to take that character there?

Was it?

That’s cool.

I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not.

laughs

Have you ever watched The Kids in the Hall? You’re like that character that Dave Foley played, the sarcastic-sounding guy who wasn’t really sarcastic. But you’re serious? It was exciting when you realized that Clay was getting dark?

Is Gary Fisketjon still your editor?

And that scene with Clay and the prostitutes in the desert…

Did he also edit American Psycho?

American Psycho

Its first publishing house rejected it, and then it came to the house where Gary Fisketjon works.

American Psycho

American Psycho?

Lunar Park

Imperial Bedroom

Can you give me an idea of what was cut from the scene?

It’s not like he was unprepared for this stuff, having edited American Psycho.

American Psycho

It all started when I asked about the scene where Clay tortures the two teen prostitutes in the desert. I love that there’s a copy of Less Than Zero in the house where that scene takes place, too. And then it’s also interesting that this is the scene over which you’ve had your most serious battle with your editor. I think it’s pretty much essential at that point in the book.

Before we finish talking about characters, I want to ask about Rip. I don’t really have a question here, but I just love him in both Less Than Zero and Imperial Bedrooms. He’s kind of comic relief, but he’s also terrifying at the same time. Is there a real-life inspiration for Rip? If there is, I’m sure he’s amplified in fiction.

Oh, great.

laughs

He’s like the supervillain of these two books.

Totally true. There are a lot of moments in both books where Clay is on the cusp, where he could just clarify things, and he’s too passive or afraid to do it. Now, I want to talk about screenwriting a little bit since you’ve been doing a lot more of that in the last few years. I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but it’s like a dream of mine to see Less Than Zero remade as a film that’s far more true to the book.

Less Than Zero

And I don’t know if it could ever be really made the way that it is in the book. The book gets very, very dark.

Right.

I’m not trying to dismiss the movie.

It was a milestone in a lot of ways.

But maybe there was this regime change and these people with kids took over, and they weren’t going to look kindly upon, say, a scene where a 12-year-old is getting raped.

And, also, it was simply the era of teen movies. You know what I mean? And it had a great marketing angle whether it followed the book to the letter or not. It’s like, “This is the dark 80s teen movie.”

Less Than Zero

Yeah.

Yeah, it feels more like an art-house kind of thing now.

And now Imperial Bedrooms already has an IMDb page.

Did the film rights sell at the same time as the book deal?

Really? Wow.

American Psycho

Was it seeing your films turned into movies that led you to screenwriting?

But the majority of the film industry does seem to me like kind of the most disgusting pit of snakes in the world.

makes a long, slow, guttural sound

Man, how do I transcribe that sound?

There you go. A low moan of agreement.

I guess I’m thinking mostly of the business side, not the creative side.

You’re kind of removed from the literary world.

It’s kind of sad.

But you still care about books. I mean, just based on a very simple source, your Twitter, where you write about reading the new books that come out and get talked about.

Altered for the better or the worse?

Unaccustomed Earth

Oh, for sure.

Now, speaking of Twitter, what’s going on there? It repulses and fascinates me. It’s like the distillation of everything I hate about the internet, but I’m still drawn to reading people’s Twitters.

It’s either a place for thinking out loud or for doing stand-up for an audience that’s not there.

Well, you’ve written my favorite Twitter that anybody’s ever written.

The Salinger one. On the day he died, you posted: “Yeah!! Thank God he’s finally dead. I’ve been waiting for this day for-fucking-ever. Party tonight!!!”

I thought it was the greatest thing I’d read in a long time.

Did you get grief from friends over that?

laughs

So did you deliberate it much before you posted it?

Responses, retweets, the whole range I’m sure.

I also liked your tweet about how The Last House on the Left remake is a better movie than Precious.

I didn’t even see Precious because I get it. You know? I saw the commercial and I don’t need to see the movie.

To me, it looked kind of like a PC or a guilt-free way to have a freak show.

I just think your comment was refreshing, because I can’t think of many other public figures that didn’t get on board with fucking Precious. You know?

New Yorker

Oh yeah, that’s right. I was shocked that Roger Ebert got on board.

Precious

Pain?

laughs

I was gutted by the end of Marley & Me, but I don’t think I would cry at Precious.

Marley & Me

Well, that’s an interesting movie because it’s supposed to be a heartwarming dramedy with a life lesson at the end, but it’s really just a snuff film where you’re watching this dog get built up only so it can die. Anyway, I’m curious about the fact that you’re writing a script called The Golden Suicides, which is about the lives and deaths of the artists Jeremy Blake and Theresa Duncan.

Gus Van Sant is making it, right?

How did you end up writing this movie?

New York

The Informers

The film version of your book of short stories.

Right.

New York

It’s such dark and sad material.

No?

I never had that negative instinct about the thought of you doing it. I’m just curious to see it.

Having not known them, I could only guess. Maybe there was a mutual feeding of each other’s paranoia?