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Francois Rucogoza: We want to solve North Kivu’s social and economic problems by tackling security. Once that’s solved, the other issues will follow. To start with, we want Congolese refugees to return, which will get development started. If we get a good result from the talks here in Kampala, North Kivu will be economically prosperous. It's rich now, but we have the problem of armed groups. There are Congolese ones, but also groups coming across the borders from Rwanda and Uganda.
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Yeah, but the FDLR are the main problem in North Kivu. Also, the government creates armed groups and has no capacity to control them. They’ve created the Nyatura and supported the APCLS, helping them to hit people in Kitchanga, a town in North Kivu. This is the big problem—they’ve created new armed groups to fight against us, and they can’t control them.What’s so bad about the FDLR?
They've been the main problem in eastern Congo since the genocide in Rwanda. There are two categories—some are former genocidaires and some are recruited by genocidaires. They don’t want to go back to Rwanda because they’ll be arrested. Unfortunately, the government in Kinshasa is working with them, so now it's hard to say who’s part of the FDLR and who’s government forces.

They could be integrated into the Congolese army, but they’ll need training because they're civilians. Or they can be integrated back into society.OK, back to the M23—aren't you just after all the natural resources in North Kivu?
No, no, no. The M23 is in Rutshuru, and that’s an agricultural zone.An agricultural zone full of mines and minerals. What kind of support does the M23 get from the Ugandan government?
None.But a report from the UN Security Council says it provides logistics and other assistance.
I can’t explain that. The UN experts wrote rumors, and their informants gave them bad information. Uganda has closed the border—how could they possibly help over a closed border?
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No way. We're fighting against the FDLR, which is from Rwanda; that’s why people make these claims. If Rwanda were supporting us, we wouldn’t be stuck where we are. The UN is confused, and I want to tell you the reality—the people of North Kivu are no different to those of Rwanda, in terms of language and culture. There are refugee camps in Rwanda and people are leaving the camps without permission to go to the DRC, which is where the confusion comes from.So the UN Security Council is wrong?
They’ve been wrongly informed. Some of their spies are being paid off, then they go underground and stay in Goma and Rutshuru.

It depends how it's divided.How is it divided?
The situation is that the M23 has been infiltrated by the Congolese government—that’s their strategy. While we’ve been in Kampala discussing all this, they tried to divide us. Unfortunately for them, they failed.So, the M23 isn't divided?
No. Well, I can't say it's not divided because Sultani Makenga, our chief of staff, has defected, so they've succeeded in that way. But the command remains. It’s composed of our president, the chief of staff, me, the chief of police, and Makenga. Only Makenga defected—the Congolese intelligence service must have offered him money and a position in government.
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No, that's speculation.What do you think of Bosco "Terminator" Ntaganda?
[Laughs] What do you think of him?

No, no, no. This is important. I worked with Anneke Van Woudenberg of HRW, and unfortunately, Anneke has been manipulated by the Congolese government. I was the minister for justice and human rights in North Kivu, and I don't accept any of these allegations at all. They're false, fraudulent. We actually called HRW, they came to Rutshuru, and we showed them how things are. But HRW has been giving money to local organizations, and these organizations have an obligation to find bad things to report back with, so they make up stories to get money. If we could, we’d sanction those involved.You'd punish them?
Yes, we’d create a tribunal and would follow the judicial process. We actually do this in Rutshuru already.How are the current peace talks going?
We've finished the first round of talks, and we're getting ready to discuss security; without that, we can’t begin to discuss political and economic issues. The main conclusion was that there’s a problem—the Congolese government in Kinshasa didn't respect the first peace agreement [the peace agreement that spawned the M23].
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