id Software’s Hugo Martin and Marty Stratton Talk ‘DOOM: The Dark Ages’, ‘80s Movies, and How To Juggle Between Innovation and Engagement (Interview)

After playing DOOM: The Dark Ages for a few hours, I had questions. Secretly, I wondered if the folks at id Software were actually human, given their 30+ years of revolutionizing the FPS genre. But, I knew I had to be a little more specific. I had the chance to sit down with id Software’s Hugo Martin and Marty Stratton to talk about DOOM: The Dark Ages, the movies and games that help inspire it, and the challenges of keeping players engaged with an evolving formula.

This interview has been edited for clarity.

Don’t mind if I fanboy a little bit, this is just a little surreal being here. I mean, id has been part of my life since I was a kid. Wolf 3D was literally the first computer game I ever played, so id’s library means a lot to me.

Hugo: “Usually the story is ‘My dad showed it to me’ or…”

Yup, it was my uncle who was living with us at the time. He got me into Wolf 3D, and then DOOM, back when I was far too young to be playing those games.

Marty: “That’s always part of the story, too.” [laughs]

Hugo: “We’re carrying on the tradition. My kids are way too young to be playing these games.”

‘DOOM: The Dark Ages’ pulls from decades of inspiration

You guys often reference movies that inspire things in DOOM 2016 and Eternal. With the shift in the setting being more of a dark fantasy, were there any movies that inspired you guys for this? Any ’80s Dark Fantasy?

Hugo: “Yeah, Roadhouse! Roadhouse is a big source of inspiration.”

Marty: “Not really a dark fantasy…” [laughs]

Hugo: “Yeah, but the structure of the story. Really, this started with a deep dive, like a study of the action film genre. Looking at all the great films from the ’80s, ’90s, and early 2000s, like Roadhouse.”

“Of course, Conan the Barbarian, cause there’s a lot of Conan in this. I’d say it’s more Conan: Sword and Sorcery than it is Lord of the Rings. Surprisingly, Roadhouse was a big source of inspiration, just in terms of how to tell a good, satisfying action story. I think the modern version of that is John Wick, which we certainly looked at, but really more going to the source. So many movies, like odd movies you’d never think of, like Moneyball. Just structure, you know, like how to tell an engaging story, what’s important when it comes to telling an action story.”

You’ve talked about the lessons you’ve learned between DOOM 2016 and DOOM Eternal, as far as keeping the power fantasy going, but also restricting the player within the bounds of the game. Were there any lessons between Eternal and DOOM: The Dark Ages?

Hugo: “I think all the actions that you need to perform in a game to be successful should be fun, that’s a given, and should be achievable by everyone in your audience. Some of the things that you could do in the game that are more skill-intensive? You don’t necessarily want to make those requirements. If a player can do this, then they’ll be more successful, and that’s great. You know, I can play basketball, I need to be able to shoot and dribble and hit free throws. I don’t have to dunk, but if I can, I’m just gonna be better at it. That was it, just making sure the ‘right way to play’ feels intuitive, it’s what the player wants to do, and it’s something they can do.”

With the change in the Slayer’s combat style, were there any complications in figuring out how to retain that power fantasy with a completely different toolset?

Hugo: “Yeah, ’cause it’s adding depth. There’s a lot of depth in Eternal, but there’s also a lot of buttons to press. So rather than spreading out, we kind of stacked it. So it’s a more streamlined, ergonomic control scheme. It’s all about these three primary actions you perform, which are the shield, the melee, and the guns. There’s a synergy amongst those. We’re encouraging you to use them, to use those attacks in combination with each other. All of the depth with Eternal, you start to put it behind those three actions.”

“So, the shield is very contextual depending on what surface material you throw it at — you get a different response. If I throw it at flesh, it sticks in the enemy and stunlocks them. If I throw it at hot metal, it shatters the metal. I can break chains with it and unlock spaces. If I throw it at plasma shields, it ricochets. That might have been like two or three buttons in Eternal, two or three different actions. Now, we’ve stacked it all under one mechanic, the Shield. And we did that for the melee and with the guns. So it’s really just maintaining the depth but streamlining the controls.”

I always say every game is better with a parry system. You’ve spoken about Bloodborne‘s push-forward, aggressive style of combat and how it kind of inspired a bit of Eternal‘s gameplay. You’ve also mentioned you’re a fan of Sekiro…

Hugo: “That’s my favorite game.”

I think it’s the best FromSoftware game, personally. Did Sekiro‘s parrying at all influence the shield parrying in DOOM: The Dark Ages?

Hugo: “I think, like you said, you know, parrying is just satisfying in all games. Same as a grapple hook — if it’s done well, it feels really good. And it just fit with the medieval world we were trying to create. What do you do in medieval DOOM? You wanna stand and fight, you wanna feel like a gladiator. Leonidas was a big touchstone.”

Marty: “I will say, after working with [Hugo] for 10 or 11 years now – just to pump his tires a little bit – I think people see it in the videos. It’s always impressive, just the breadth of information, you know. I’ll be in a meeting, and something comes up, and you’re trying to hit something very specific. And he pulls up YouTube and goes to this specific spot in this movie…”

Hugo: “Oh, The Untouchables…”

Marty: “Yeah, that was a good example. Like it literally couldn’t have been a more obscure reference… But it’s never like, ‘It’s this, and that’s the only thing,’ you know. I’ve seen that before, like ‘Hey, we’re making the game version of this movie,’ and it’s really more like a massive influence that weaves its way into every aspect of the game in different ways.”

Hugo: “Too much TV.”

Marty: [laughs] “All good stuff, though. It’s fun. The references are always amazing, whether it’s games or movies.”

prepping the floodgates

So we’re just a couple of months away from launch. We’re sort of in that calm before the storm…

Marty: “It’s kind of the storm before the storm on our side.”

What’s the most stressful part of this time? How do you deal with it?

Marty: “You work on something for this long, you know, and you believe in it so much, and everybody is just trying to.. You know, when we get to this point, if you don’t believe it’s the best thing you’ve made, you shouldn’t put it out. So, you believe in it that much. Truly, I feel like [The Dark Ages] is the best project I’ve ever been a part of in my career. Everybody just knows there’s this date on the calendar that you don’t get to touch anymore. And you talk about lessons learned from DOOM Eternal to now. We’re literally learning lessons over there watching you all play.”

Hugo: “Well, confirming.” [laughs] “Things we’re already working on, and then as soon as we watch you guys do it, we’re like, ‘Yes! It’s good that we fixed that.’”

Marty: “Exactly. It’s just that fine-tuning to make sure you feel like you’ve found as many bugs as you possibly can. That people are gonna have a great experience. You know, everything is dialed in, the ‘fun zone’ doesn’t have any holes in it. Because it’s out there, millions of people get to play it.”

All in the balance

Hugo: “It’s that sweet spot… The game is asking you to do what you want to do, and doing the right thing is intuitive and it’s fun. That’s the key. When we watch you guys play, right now, it’s just catching those little edge cases, those cracks in the fun zone, where people are slipping, like, ‘Oh geez, they’re doing that instead of the other thing. We didn’t account for that, they shouldn’t do that.’ You know, I think the best games, like Sekiro, right – you parry, you do some stealth in the right moments, you’re aggressive when you’re supposed to be. And the game does a good job at encouraging you to do that.”

“But within that, there’s a lot of exploration, there always is. It’s not, ‘Here’s the only things you can do.’ There’s tons of room for player preference inside of someone’s fun zone, inside the game experience. You don’t have to do this small set of actions. There’s plenty of room for player preference.”

Marty: “I think that’s more true with The Dark Ages than it was for Eternal by a lot. When I play, that always stands out.”