Giuliani Called Trump Lawyers ‘a Bunch of Pussies’ in ‘Screaming’ White House Meeting

White House staffer Cassidy Hutchinson texted that the White House meeting was “unhinged.” That might be an understatement.
Cameron Joseph
Washington, US
Giuliani told Trump officials they’re 'a bunch of pussies' for opposing Trump's coup attempt
Rudolph Giuliani, attorney for Donald Trump, conducts a news conference at the Republican National Committee on Thursday, November 19, 2020. (Tom Williams/CQ-Roll Call, Inc via Getty Images)

Rudy Giuliani called then-President Donald Trump’s senior White House lawyers “a bunch of pussies” in the middle of a chaotic and furious late-night White House meeting, according to testimony to the House January 6 Select Committee—and those lawyers just barely managed to keep Trump from taking drastically anti-democratic steps.

Trump huddled on Dec. 18, 2020, with Giuliani, QAnon-affiliated former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, conspiracy theorist lawyer Sidney Powell, and former CEO Patrick Byrne to discuss appointing Powell as special counsel to investigate the election, and consider Flynn’s calls to use the National Guard to seize voting machines in various states.


When Trump’s saner advisers got wind of the unscheduled meeting, they rushed to intervene. It quickly devolved into a furious fight that Trump White House staff described as “screaming” and “unhinged.”

Powell testified that White House Counsel Pat Cipollone “set a land speed record” to get to the meeting, and spent it treating both her and the president with disdain.

Cipollone testified that when he arrived, he told Trump that Powell that her wild, half-baked conspiracy theories were beyond the pale.

“To have the federal government seize voting machines? That’s a terrible idea for the country. That’s not how we do things in the United States. There’s no legal authority to do that,” he told the committee.

Cipollone said that Powell repeatedly dodged when he asked her for actual proof of widespread election fraud to back up her drastic plot—and made it clear to Trump that he thought it was a terrible idea to appoint Powell to a powerful position.

“I don’t think she should be appointed to anything,” he told the committee.

Trump attorney Eric Herschmann backed Cipollone up—and said the meeting quickly devolved into a “screaming” match.

Trump made clear he planned to appoint Powell over Cipollone’s objections, but Powell said Cipollone told Trump that he and others would ignore that appointment.

“You see what I deal with? And I deal with this all the time,” Trump replied, Powell testified.

Giuliani testified that his response to Cipollone and Herschmann, verbatim, was “You’re a bunch of pussies.”


“The West Wing is unhinged,” White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson texted someone immediately after the meeting.

The broad contours of that meeting have previously been reported on, as has the executive order that Powell drafted. But this is the first time that various attendees of that meeting have spoken publicly about it.

Trump eventually backed down from appointing Powell. But he immediately pivoted to another drastic measure, tweeting after 1 a.m. that night to summon his supporters to Washington on January 6.

“It’s going to be wild!” Trump tweeted.

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