We Asked a Prison Officer What They Thought of the 'Four Corners' Abuse Footage

On Monday night, Four Corners horrified Australia with footage of abuse from inside the Northern Territory's Don Dale Juvenile Detention Centre. It wasn't the first time someone had cried foul about the prison. But it was the first time the average Australian saw young boys being tear gassed, thrown to the ground, stripped naked, and, frankly, tortured. As Malcolm Turnbull summarised , "I have been deeply shocked, shocked and appalled by the images of mistreatment."

Of course these images are appalling to anyone who works outside the justice system. But I wanted to know how they look to someone on the inside. How can prison staff become so desensitised to cruelty?

Will Hobbs* worked in an Australian state prison system for 10 years. He started as a social worker, counselling young offenders, before working his way up to a management position in a mental health unit. He quit earlier this year, saying it had become too much. I called Will up to ask, given his decade working inside prisons, what he thought when he saw this week's Four Corners.

VICE: Hi Will, can you describe for me what your initial reaction was to the footage?
Will Hobbs: I wasn't shocked but I was definitely concerned. I watched it with my father, actually, and I explained to him that some of the procedures were normal. Others weren't. The use of tear gas is normal but strapping someone into a wheelchair while they're wearing a spit-hood is a bit Hannibal Lector. I've never seen anyone do that.

The other thing I saw in that footage was what had driven those kids to that point of desperation. I know that those kids weren't getting enough access to outside areas, and were probably being denied a whole range of regular prison rights.

Those guys also all had chest cameras, which is normal, but narrating what they were doing is concerning. To me the whole thing looked like kids driven to breaking point with staff who were there for the wrong reasons.

Yeah that struck me watching it. The staff seem pretty callous, almost a bit sadistic.
That's right, but the other thing you have to remember is that they're dealing with violent offenders. The challenge is that you sometimes have to match their behaviour to defend yourself. I wasn't brought up violent, but I've seen and done some things I'm not proud of too.

Are you saying what we're seeing in these videos, that's considered normal inside the prison system?
Yes and no. I'd say 95 percent of the job was boredom. Then about five percent was hectic. It's about how you manage yourself when things are hectic.

I want to ask you about your own experiences. But first can you tell me about a time when you've seen other staff go too far?
Look, I think just the most common case is that when staff bring prisoners onto the ground—which is normal—but then they'll lay into them: kneeing them in the head, kicking them in the back. That's not normal. Also, I've seen people do this sort of thing on camera, which is insane.

The other really common thing that happens is that staff will go out of their way to deny rights to certain people. Prisons mandate certain rights for inmates and some staff will make sure these are denied. This all contributes to making prisoners feel desperate.

In your experience, why do prison staff start abusing their power?
There are a range [of reasons] but I think a lot of staff are just in the wrong job. In the last five years the prison population has gone up and more jails have opened. Corrections departments are recruiting more and more people, and often attracting the wrong types. A lot of them often have military backgrounds.

So they're there for the power?
Yeah, or a lot of them believe prisoners are basically pieces of shit. I used to hear my own staff use that expression a lot: They are pieces of shit. I used to say, No they're not. They just haven't had the same opportunities as you and I. Plus, I'd just ask these staff, If you really believe you're working around pieces of shit, why are you here?

Good question. Why are they there?
I think it's often about the money. In a management role I was on $210,000 a year with nine weeks off. It's either that or, in a lot of cases, for power. Also, I know this will sound like I'm a pig, but I often found female staff were the most cruel. It seemed like more than a few had found their way into the job via a frustration with men, and seemed to enjoy provoking fights. It was really awful.

Watch rapper Briggs visit young incarcerated offenders in Briggs- Live at Juvie:

If you had to guess, what is the split between good and bad prison staff?
I'd say 70 percent of them are doing the right thing.

And management just don't care they're employing 30 percent who aren't doing the right thing?
Look, I think Corrections has a bit of an old boy's club mentality. Management have no issue with abuse as long as it doesn't bite them in the arse. I've seen a guy beat an inmate on camera and he was sacked, and I've seen others do the same just get demoted a level.

Is that an acceptable situation?
No, I think it's a terrible situation and I think it's a reason this footage is causing so much controversy. Management really need to care, and they need to be seen to care.

You said before that you'd done things you weren't proud of.
Yeah, I quit because it became too much for me. I once choked an inmate for raping another inmate. I got angry with him and it wasn't right. That affected me for a long time after. I've got a young daughter, I want to be happy and present for her. I didn't want to work in that kind of high-conflict environment any more.

Did working in prisons teach you anything about anger?
That it's prevalent and hard to control. The hard part is learning to stop yourself getting angry and to not give in.

Follow Julian on Twitter.

*Not his real name.