Pied Pipers Vol 3: Elijah Celebrates 10 Years of Logan Sama's KissGrime, and Slackk Breaks Down The Latest

In this months edition of Pied Pipers, Elijah sits down with renowned grime DJ and radio host Logan Sama, to mark the end of his 10-year run on Kiss FM, and Slackk gives us a rundown of some of the latest grime crews, mixes, tracks and radio shows.

Elijah: Not many people know after ten years on Kiss, you actually started out on Rinse. When you were on the come up at the time, what was the musical landscape like? 2003 was still a couple of years before grime actually came about, right?

Logan Sama: When Dugs asked me to record a demo on Rinse, FWD didn't really exist, the term "grime" didn't exist - everything was still in its nascent stages. It was just considered "underground garage". I did my first show in the Dagenham Heathway abandoned community centre (which doubled as the Rinse studio) in 2002, and doing my first ever Rinse show with Wiley, Maxwell D, Slimzee and everyone else there behind me on a sofa, being interviewed for a newspaper, was pretty surreal.

Do you remember a particular turning point when you kind of started to play less "traditional" garage, and focus on the kind of stuff Dizzee, Wiley and the rest started to push?

Logan Sama: My show was 7pm - 9pm on a Friday, and 9pm - 11pm was the Roll Deep show. Throughout 2002 I was sent so much garage that sounded the same (or worse) than classic 2 step stuff, yet these guys were making some amazing, innovative new sounds. It was so exciting to me. Garage, as I knew it, had become really stagnant. When I got hold of the demo of Dizzee's Boy In Da Corner, I remember consciously deciding to push this sound and the culture, rather than the rigid bpm of mixable garage.

The transition from Rinse to Kiss seemed really smooth. It was an interesting time too; Dizzee, Wiley, Kano and Lethal B all being signed artists. How much did your radio show, and the new eyes and ears, change the attitudes in the scene?

Logan Sama: There was this kind of classic British elitism. You had the people who got into it from tracks like 'Pow', and people who listened to Deja and Rinse in 2002. It was a funny time; you know, how people like to try and own something as just a listener. It was when I first started seeing artists trying to make music they felt would appeal to a wider audience though, and that always caused friction.

Going into 2006, there seemed to be a big transition from vinyl to mixtapes. How much do you think this changed the music?

Logan Sama: Maybe subconsciously, but vinyl is pretty much exclusively for a DJ to play. CDs are for people to listen to at home or in there car predominantly, and that started to come across in the music being made. Coupled with the drastic reduction in live events, you started to hear less and less "for the club" tracks, and more about showing of lyrical dexterity, like linguistic gymnastics.

Ghetto, Wretch 32 and Scorcher came through in 2006 with a more technical, style which was significantly more hip hop orientated. There wasn't really a UK rap radio show either, where this kind of style could have sat in. Did you feel pressure to kind of widen what you played when this happened?

Logan Sama: No, because most of what they did fit within my show. I was criticised for it mainly because of production style more than their MCing styles. A lot of people considered it "bait hip hop" - even though it was 140bpm, and used a lot of grime sounds. Obviously they did make some out-and-out hip hop tracks using rap flows but since they sonically didn't work in my show, I didn't play them. My show has always been about what I feel fits under the umbrella of grime culture.

I'd say 2006's big breakthrough was JME with the Boy Better Know mixtape series, right?

Logan Sama: It's funny because I remember back then, I had printed up the Grime Is Dead tees. Everyone was talking about how "It isn't like the old days! It's dead now", yet you had BBK and The Movement releasing great music. Of course Skepta, Wiley and JME were dropping productions as well then - some of which I was fortunate enough to release on my label, like Skepta's Autopsy - and you had all the DVDs like Risky Roads and Practise Hours. There was so much cool shit going on.

Going into 2007, I'd say the biggest impact made was by Maniac.

Logan Sama: Yeah, like, he just kinda crept up. I remember he produced a wardub for Snoopy, and didn't really stand out for a while, and then made a wonderful batch of records - 'Headshot', 'Devil', 'Saltfish' - and he didn't stop. He was a real, prodigious talent. I would be talking to him on MSN until 4am, go to sleep, and wake up the next day to find three new tunes of his in my inbox.

Would you say the Skepta and Ghetto clash is one of your biggest shows you did on Kiss? Now, on any platform, two artists of that stature just won't go at it like that anymore. 

Logan Sama: That wasn't even a clash at the time. I was meant to have Kano on the show and he cancelled last minute, so I called up Wiley, Ghetts, Skepta, Badness and JME, and it was magic live radio.

In 2008, you started to provide visuals on YouTube for the first time with the help of a young Jamal Edwards (of SBTV), and a new generation of MC's came through. P Money, Chipmunk, Griminal and Double S were the top of that pile. How much do you think they helped in keeping a really young audience interested in the music, or just getting new people into the music in general?

Logan Sama: The beautiful thing about grime is there's always news faces coming through the doors, and those guys really showed that there was longevity. They were the third generation artists that grew up looking up to people like Roll Deep, Essentials and Meridian Crew, but they were coming through in a weird time. We had a major show for grime music on a large commercial radio station, but hardly any pirate stations or events. As you can see from a few of the names around that time, they ended up going in directions that creatively left the culture and its core fan base behind, but they did a lot in terms of maintaining the fresh, exciting aspect of grime.

Around that time, Wiley did 'Wearing My Rolex', and a lot of artists had confusing music. The press got onto the whole electro grime thing, right?

Logan Sama: Well, Dizzee did it first with 'Dance With Me', which none of the radio stations understood at first - until it was number one for like, six weeks in a row.

'Next Hype' is the remedy to all those tracks. Did you think that track would become that big? It was kind of like 2009's 'German Whip'; an obvious underground record that just reaches loads of people. 

Logan Sama: I saw 'Next Hype' in a rave and, more importantly, I saw other artists reactions to it too. When a track is making all the other MCs and DJs go mad, it will naturally follow that it will cross over. Same with 'Pow', same with 'German Whip'.

In 2010, I'd say you had a lot of artists that were staples of your show go on to be successes in the commercial world; again like Tinie, Wretch and Tinchy, but another wave seemed to come through again. People like Merky ACE, Kozzie, Scrufizzer, and even producers like Royal-T, Teddy and Rude Kid really started to gather momentum. Did you feel like grime was starting to get used as a jumping off point, as high profile artists weren't really taking the music with them?

Logan Sama: The problem with grime has never been about creativity, artistry or even professionalism, it's been about a lack of infrastructure and business. When you've been doing music for five or more years, and you are still only seeing four-figure sums from your labour per year, you're going to (out of necessity) start to look at greener pastures to feed your kids. To keep a roof over your heads.

It was always the case that MCs, and even producers, reached a point where grime just wouldn't go as far as they wanted it to. They had all these offers that came with so much opportunity. My grievance isn't with any musicians. It's with the short-sighted, cherry-picking mentality of the major labels that run this country's music industry. They don't know what the fuck to do with grime, so it's largely a case of the artists being ushered down a route which sees them leave that sound behind. To make something more palatable to the 40-somethings in board rooms, in the playlist meetings on the stations that make the big money.

More than that too, you then set a precedent for the younger generation that you "do grime, then move on". Grime becomes this spawning pool for talent, but no one wants to get in it. They want to pluck the specimens out. Put them into a nice, corporate fish tank instead.

I think this was definitely a narrative across 10 years of your show in that it was one of the few spots on commercial radio that an unsigned artist could be heard. When you look back at track-lists most of the shows consist of music released by the artists themselves, which is completely different to any other genre. Do you think that's been overlooked?

Logan Sama: Definitely. For ten years, that is inexcusable to be honest. I would say 90% of the output of my show is self-published and released, yet so many artists have gone on to be picked up by majors. There needs to be some real grassroots investment rather than this standoffish approach, waiting for a 'German Whip' to appear and swoop in.

That is why I am thankful that I have discovered wonderful things like the PRS for Music Trust and the Arts Council, who are there to help people who want to just make honest, genuine art for art's sake, and not with the aim of charting or getting daytime radio spins. I am all about supporting music that really represents the voice and spirit of the young people making it, not some sanitised approximation deemed safe for Britain's ears.

On 'German Whip' specifically, do you think when those kind of tracks explode, the success of it kind of provokes hysteria in the music industry; a few artists get signed, and end up in deals looking for similar success?

Logan Sama: I think it could be good for grime as a whole. I have supported the record wholeheartedly because you have to believe and hope for the best, but from my experience of this country's record industry? They only take on a sampling of something when it is "in", and not really develop it properly. Meridian Dan is in a great situation because his deal is with a slightly more independent label in PMR, and includes him releasing a full 'I Am London' project following the single. Having said that, I can already see the "We support urban music, we've had Meridian Dan in!" mentality that is classic amongst British media.

Because everyone already likes the track, he is a safe option to invite in on shows. He has been on loads of radio shows - and that is well deserved, because it's a fucking massive tune - but you won't see anyone else from this world the next week, or even the next month. It just, fills the quota. I have to give credit to Dan though. He's done everything to shine a light on the grime scene as a whole, not just himself.

Now that you're stepping away from radio, what's your take on the importance of radio in an era of mass self-publishing?

Logan Sama: I think the great thing about radio, that is very much still relevant, is bringing people's attention together on one particular spot, or place in time. FM radio may be becoming less and less relevant, what with high speed mobile data connections and on demand services, but the need for an event or spectacle for people to focus on is very much still there. When we started radio back in the pirate days, the spectacle was a big set, or a crew show. That led to the regular big raves that you looked forward to, like Sidewinder and Eskimo Dance.

Now, we have a disjointed diaspora of artists and fans who largely cross paths only through the various social media networks we all engage in. You don't have that focal point anymore. I'm sure you remember the ORIGINAL stream from Axe FM back in 2004. That sort of thing was unheard of. Anywhere. It was so ahead of its time. Grime is about that excitement and energy, and it is amplified when you could actually see it happening.

Yea Axe FM was effectively Boiler Room in 2004. It's crazy to think that they did that with internet speeds at the time.

Logan Sama: Exactly. It just shows you what we are capable of doing with zero budget and some ingenuity.

KeepingitGrimy is going to be your primary outlet going forward.  What are your plans for it? And how do you think these will effect the scene over the next few years?

Logan Sama: I want to work tirelessly on pulling together some amazing content for the enjoyment of the grime fans, and the enlightenment of a wider audience. I think there is scope for showcasing these musicians as creators of true art on a level with anyone else in the UK. Letting people know what is going in within the scene as a whole, rather than them having to follow individuals. I want it to be like Sky Sports News for grime.

What do you think we should be looking out for from the scene over the next few months?

Logan Sama: There's loads of exciting shit going on. People are taking the grime sound all over the place. You have a different emerging instrumental collective at Boxed, you have Butterz touring the world, you have MCs making some classic shit, like Skepta's 'That's Not Me'. I think you will see people recapturing that energy of the past without just copying. I am excited to see how people update grime with old school sensibilities, but new school attitudes and sounds.

Slackk: So far in Pied Pipers, I've largely focused on the upswing and resurgence of grime instrumentals, and neglected the MC element of grime. I want to make a point of mentioning the younger MCs coming up in and around Lewisham, Novelist, and the rest of his crew, the Square. I did a set with Novelist last October, which I best get out the way first in case of bias, but it's been bubbling under for a while. I think some will know Novelist from the tune he did with Mumdance, 'Take Time', and he was on NTS Radio a couple of weeks ago with Logan Sama. The first hour of that set is a very big Oil Gang b2b Grandmixxer set full of mad new Dullah Beatz - a few of which are out soon.